[missionary]

OK M O D,

You say you have enjoyed the thread and I guess that I have been the major contributor. But saving tax etc has not been the point of the main conversation.

You will see that some of us - me included - have benefitted from a VU plate. My reasons are detailed previously, so please read them again.

I am just about to buy a home in Serbia and would dearly love to have a VU or similar plated car to keep there. (My previous use of same in the Balkans area has been beneficial). But as you see by my comment earlier today, the Cook Islands route is not openly proven on this thread by those who are trying to sell them. And once again, for European motoring I am sure the insurance will be a problem for some. So let us hope that AXA keep insuring odd registrations !

Don't look too deep into it, its about convenience more than tax evasion. Certainly for me registering a 1992 vehicle !

cheers
mish

[BondyUK]

Mish,

Yeah I haven't been around for a while. Partly because ive been ill, ive moved house and mainly because for some reason O2 had decided that this website (or another hosted on the same server I guess) contained child p0rnography and would not allow any customers to access it
After so long I just tried it again on the off chance and they have now removed it from their blacklisted sites! It was a really freaky situation


I do find it quite funny that nearly every post you have to explain to someone that it has nothing to do with tax! lol

I know Andorra doesn't help your situation, I was just saying its one ive personally been interested in since I don't drive outside the EU. I think that for this reason, having a European, but non-EU, registered vehicle has its advantages. Again as you said, nothing to do with tax, but for crossing boarders since its one of those that have an indirect relationship with EU countries (not being an EU member directly, but via France and Spain). Similar to the way Jersey does via the UK I guess.

Anyway, enough about Europe as that doesn't exactly help you

Im surprised one of the smaller African countries haven't started offering this kind of service. I can imagine their 'legal red tape' is fairly simple and they could offer it at very low cost compared to the western/developed world. With the number of people that would probably take the offer it would provide valuable cash flow into their economy/country.

[MoneyOfDoom]

miss & bondy:

It's pretty simple. If you drive a car with another license plate, around in a European country for more than 3 months, you'll have to provide proof that you are
1) either employed by a foreign company and mainly live in another EU country
2) or provide proof, that you have been outside the current EU country for at certain period of time.

Secondly it really doesn't have that many advantages, driving with non-eu license plates. Oh yeah, you might escape a parking ticket or two, but you will most likely be pulled over for rutine checks more often and again, you are not allowed to steam around in a EU country for an entire year, without leaving the country.
Can you imagine the Danes and their car taxes? This isn't about convenience, this IS about money, as always.
If things were so simple, then all danes would purchase VU-plates or whatever and roam the roads on these plates.
But they DON'T and thats because they are residents of their current contry and have no connection to VU and they can not provide any proof of a valid reason, for driving around on foreign plates. I mean, it's very simple to see but very complex to work your way out of.

As said before: You have to have an adress, company etc., in another cheap EU country, purchase the car there and handle all the registrations there and then you might, (if you fix the structures rights) be able to drive around in your home country without running into a 3-month problem where you HAVE to leave the EU country with your car unless you want to pay expensive registration fees and taxes.

Feel free to check the Danish situation if you want - they are world champions at trying to avoid taxes, expensive carregistrations and much more.
They are the #1 most tax affected country in the whole world.

[missionary]

Bondy gotcha !

Appreciate the need to disappear at times for more essential tasks. Funny about O2, was it thew surname G*****r that gave it away

Agree about our new friend and he still does not appear to have read all the thread, or has read it selectively. But he is plainly telling us all that he is selling 'advice'. So has another agenda, as a lot of contributors here also have.

Appreciate what you mean about Andorra. If it suits then do it, its worked for me after all. Just check out the small print in the AXA policy.

Funny what you say about African plates. In Sarajevo for about 4 years I have been regularly seeing a white Rover on Nigerian plates from Abuja. It might be genuine, but there is no diplo mission in the country, so not from that quarter.

I was in Liberia (West Africa) last winter and they have a very relaxed system there. You go along to the plods and tell them the initials of your company - say its 'ABC' and then for your first vehicle you get the plate 'ABC 001' then the next 'ABC 002' and so on.

If I go back I must find out a bit more about it.

Cheers

mish

[BondyUK]

Originally Posted by missionary

white Rover on Nigerian plates

Im not sure I could trust anything on Nigerian plates lol.
Even if it were legit, im not sure the police will take you seriously if pulled over in any country

As for MOD providing his 2p.
Although it was a nice lesson in something I already knew, you have missed one very important factor here...
When did I say I would not leave the country for over 3 months?

If I decide to drive for 2 hours to my family home in France once a month (or at least every 3 months), or drive to stay with my grandparents in Spain for a couple of weeks (fair enough I personally wouldn't drive this distance, but thats not up to the government to decide for me), I have no requirement to license my car in the UK if I dont want to. I have the choice.
Equally though, given that Andorra has one main road from the south of France to Spain running through it, I may register it there on tourist plates, technically keeping the car completely out of the EU, while being fully recognised by both France and Spain, they do not give a second look at the vehicle.
Ok if stopped in the UK they may be funny, but if you can justify as above, and just keep your past tickets in the glovebox to show if required, there really isnt an issue. Also, while I have a UK issued license, I can imagine that if for example, I exchanged my license for a french one, it really becomes out of the hands of the local copper pulling you over.


The whole point of this thread was about making it easier to cross boarders, obtain a single insurance policy (or minimising the ones required) etc.
While Andorra is not suitable for Mish, it can become useful in say, my previous example.
Does it have anything to do with tax? NO
It is to do with the exchange of my private information between governments. While the UK is more than happy to provide very registered drivers details with any requesting government, France in particular, is not. Andorra, not being an EU member, have no such requirement either.


Mish, I have seen an increasing amount of cars around the UK registered in (I think) Estonia. Read very briefly about it a while ago, but they actually seem to be used lately so maybe worth a look.

[missionary]

MOD.

You have done it again, you don't say where you come from or where you live, so let us make this simple sunshine.

I am 60 years old and have been there done it and got the tee shirt. I don't just write about the theory like you - I have done it. I have had a VU plated vehicle for years and still have - its in Ethiopia right now. I have registered several aid agency vehicles in Kosovo (that is in Europe you know) with VU plates . Guess why I am called MISSIONARY ?

Its not about tax saving. You are only likely to get reported if you have such a reg in your own country. If you are a foreigner living in another EU country all your neighbours expect you to be travelling. Go away for a weekend and no one knows if you have crossed a border or not. And there is no proof as the vehicle does not have a passport that gets stamped. Same if you live in say the Balkans or Ukraine etc.

If I get stopped on the roadside its usually for a bent plod trying to fine me for speeding with a reading on his radar gun from the previous car he booked. You just act the dumb foreigner and they let you go, or you give them 5 euros for a bottle of vino, its all they are looking for. At borders - few in central EU due to Schengen - do you know what that is? - they are more keen on checking your green card insurance, they don't want to know about the registration. And if you are leaving Austria they want to see that you have a valid carnet sticker, no more.

Its the insurance that is the problem as the EU laws strengthen with insurers. AXA get away with it for offering it to visitors entering for a holiday, then stretch the rules.

Please go and peddle your book elsewhere and make a valid contribution from your experience of the topic in hand - and its not about tax saving on this thread.

cheers
mish

[jryangold]

Well said Mish and note that there are those who are watching.

[Nursultan]

In Hungary, where I live, Uniqa insurance company elaborated a way to insure foreign plated cars. The bottom line is that you have to be a distinguished client of Uniqa and you can insure anything based on the VIN number. How can you be a vip or distinguished client, you have to own another policy at Uniqa, possibly a life insurance or a unit link insurance, with my age (35) the cheapest policy would be 450 EUR/year. The vehicle insurance rates then are based on the regular Hungarian tarrifs, so a liability insurance with green card for a Porsche Cayenne 3.6 (my choice) with VU, HRP or US plates would cost 800 EUR/year including the other policy. Considering the fact that the life insurance is not just a waste of money, one day you get it back, this is a reasonable offer. I think EU citizens may also join this program. By the way, recently I have seen a lot of cars with HRP plates in Hungary, I know it's a fake country, but it seems to work.

[MoneyOfDoom]

Originally Posted by OffshorePrivacy

Any know any details about this program, I find nothing on their govt web site. I want to make sure this is not a scam -- and how long it takes.

I have a Canadian client who wants to register a US car in Vanuatu using his US Corp, but drive it in Canada -- this saves about $35,000 in taxes as the car is a BMW made in Germany and Canada taxes it at a much higher rate.

Any feedback?

To Jryangold and Mish:

This is the topic at the start of the thread. I see the word tax in there. Secondly I see a BMW name in there as well - a roughly luxury European car that might contribute to the next 10 pages of this thread. Secondly the thread is located in the subforum called "Taxes, Offshore Banks and legal issues".

My replies in this thread has had all 3 issues included, so I do not understand why you are attacking my replies.

As I might add once more; Yes, my background is in banking, but I have come across a fair amount of wealthy clients and some of these machomen want to purchase expensive cars for the LEAST amount of money, and I've seen some pretty wicked constructions across EU-borders etc., in order for these relatively young men to purchase Mercedes, Porsches or whatever car they might be driving.

Yes, you might be 60 and congratulations on the VU plates and a car roaming in Ethiopia or Kosovo. I'm pretty sure it's also very easy and cheap to register a BMW in Congo or Somalia, but that doesn't really do anything for a EU citizen looking for a "cheap" luxury car solution. This is just my 5 cents.
With 60 years of knowledge I'm sure you can contribute much more in this thread than I could - could you clarify what Schen...Schgen...schang....argh... Shankan....Scengen is?!

My point: My comments have been very valid and I comply with all rules for this forum and thread. If there's anything else, then send a PM to me.
As for the thread at hand - I'll leave it up to the other experts here in this thread to answer. I whon't dig +8 pages but can see, that some points have been answered and made clear in some pages before.

[missionary]

MOD

At last you are being less strident and giving more information, thank you. I guess you are in Canada which explains a lot. Although I have lived and worked in the USA I would assume that I knew nothing about border issues etc in that country or its neighbours. I also work with a lot of people from north America and at times their ignorance of the world and how it works is outstanding. I am not saying that about you, but when you get into dialogue with Europeans especially, you are dealing with people who live and work with a whole different set of rules. This is illustrated by your lack of knowledge of Schengen. (I assume that the structures to which you refer are fiscal and not physical, especially as the latter no longer exist). So an explanation of that word.

Free trade across borders within the EU member states and some other European countries was introduced in 1992, therefore trucks did not need to declare cargoes or have customs manifests etc to cross borders within the specified area. But it was then considered expedient to have the eventual objective of free and unfettered movement of people across the EU and some neighbours. The principle was agreed at a summit in the town of Schengen. But not all the countries agreed to implement it. The UK and Eire being good examples, notably due to the huge illegal immigrant problem that exists – controls are still required for every individual crossing their borders.

But a lot of countries do not have such a huge immigrant problem and are happy for free movement of people across their borders unchecked. So 15 or so countries currently have no border checks whatsoever. No barriers, immigration or customs officers, truck and cargo checkpoints, truck weighbridges, nothing. Its called the 'Schengen Area'.

So if I want to drive to Croatia, as I often do, I get to the ferry/tunnel terminal in Dover England and I have to go through a passport check before crossing, there is no check of the vehicle or its documents etc. I drive off the train/ferry in France and there is absolutely no check on me personally, my passengers, the contents of my vehicle, or the vehicle itself.

In 30 minutes I enter Belgium, and if I blink I miss the sign that reads ‘welcome to Belgium’. No other sign of a border other than a normal road sign. I then go on to Brussels, round the ring road and then on to the Belgian/German border at Aachen. There are some old former border control buildings but the traffic now goes round them, there is no check and not even a requirement to drive slowly for scrutiny. The same comes when going from Germany into Austria. I go either via the Passau crossing or Munich and then cross into Austria at Salzburg, and at that crossing there are a lot of border buildings through which one travels, but again there is no stoppage to the traffic. I then cross into eastern Croatia, but before I leave Austria I have my passport checked and the fact that I have a road carnet (transit tax) sticker on my screen. I get to Croatia and I get the full works (Non EU country still using rules based on the old socialist regime). They not only look at my passport but also my vehicle insurance – a green card as it is called, or a pink card if I have insurance bought at the frontier traffic office for travel in that country only. They also want to look at the contents of the vehicle, notably for illegally imported spirits. (Its all been written in this thread previously by the way).

Now perhaps you can understand why having a ‘different’ registration is comparatively easy for us in Europe – as long as we cross borders at least every 6 months. But in Europe the borders can be close together so a couple of hours will take you on a round trip to a different country and back. So you have a new entry into the country and another six month period starts. But with no car passport, and no check and stamp in your own passport, who can tell if you have been in the country for 6 weeks or 6 months ?

Again, I commend you to read all the thread – which you admit you have not done – you will read the experience of others in travelling in Europe.

As far as ‘attacking’ your replies is concerned, you have been out of context. You may think the thread is in the wrong place, but it was started some years ago by others who made a very limited contribution. About 75% of the thread has not been about tax evasion. Again, read all 11 pages and you will see. But you have also banged on about tax when our topic of conversation has been nothing to do with it. You would have been better starting a new thread which concentrated on tax if that concerns you more. But again, had you read the thread in full you would have seen that VU no longer issue registrations for vehicles that are not on their islands, but you are still saying you want such a reg for a client. One contributor has offered to sell Cook Islands registrations but yet on his webpage as an illustration shows a Hummer with VU plates on it. It is sufficiently indistinct enough to just look foreign, but those of us with VU plates can tell them a mile off – must be something to do with the 4 palm trees on each plate ! You will see the very helpful contribution from Nursultan about HRP plates in Europe which is very interesting. But as an expert on offshore facilities yourself, you will of course know all about ‘prince’ Len and his schemes.

Perhaps we had better start a whole new forum on yahoo for alternative registrations ! Are we straight now?

NURSULTAN

What a very helpful and intelligent contribution, thank you. I like most others, have thought of HRP as being no more than a joke, but you have got me very interested. I will look at their website again and see about it. I want to put a vehicle on a property in Serbia and this would be a great way to solve all the usual ‘foreigner’ problems. Thanks also for the griff on the insurance

BONDY

Don’t worry about the Nigerian plates, this guy obviously gets away with it, and why should it not be legitimate? Its the same for the Liberian scheme. I forgot to mention that in that country when you change vehicle ‘ABC 001’ after a few years, they just re-issue the plate onto your replacement vehicle. This also applies to vehicles imported, even if they are used or from the company (or aid agency in my case) and another of its locations outside the country. I am starting to think that there may be some flexibility in there somewhere ;o) I will follow it up when next there.

On Andorra you are absolutely right, it’s the same principle under which I travel with my VU plate. As for evidence, when I have brought the car to the UK I have kept the neat little boarding card that Norfolk Line issues as evidence. Its credit card size and fits nicely in the pocket in the sun visor. At times I have also kept the hook-on boarding pass line number hanging on the rear view mirror for a few weeks.

JRYANGOLD

Nice to know you are lurking, and approving, As for ‘those watching’, do you refer to tax authorities, licensing authorities, or vehicle insurance companies? (Oh I see, you own this website !). No matter, I have been watched by various people for many years now. Which takes me back to one reason why I registered the car in this way. To register in Balkan countries one has to have formal residence registration and lodge an application with the secret police – or ministry of the interior as they are euphemistically called. Yet one can travel into and out of the country every 90 days with an EU passport and not need to register one’s residence. When the border is an hour’s drive away then there is no contest on the best way to stay anonymous !

That’s it for today friends

Cheers
mish