EarnByLoaning - earnbyloaning.com

[awty]

Originally Posted by jlpicard

from private individuals and investors - (sure as heck not from banks or other typical commercial funding sources). But wasn't that my original point?

If you had another source in mind, please clarify.

Credit cards for one. How about using cash from a home equity loan?
MANY others...
Jeff

[awty]

Originally Posted by futurewealth

???
Umm Jeff.. have you actually looked at EBL?
EBL does not loan OUT money to members.....
Nor do members pay back loans to EBL???

Are you sure you are understanding it right.. or am I understanding you incorrectly?

Nope, haven't looked. Don't need to.
Question is, how do they make money. (The simple answer would be, of course, that they don't, and that's usually the best place to start from.)
And, since they're not going to disclose it, well, self evident...

Time will tell, of course.

I could continue to point things out, but it would likely be a waste of all of our time...

But if you want a little more 'expert' opinion, there are people MUCH more knowledgeable than me...

But, it might be wise to consider a possibility (And, actually, not one that's not too remote...)

What would YOU do, if they quit paying today, and you had no chance to withdraw anything. It can (and will, my opinion) happen at some point...

(And, yes, I'm familiar with the 'history' of some of the 'promoters' here, however, might be better to have THEM 'explain things' when the time comes...)

Just my opinion,
Jeff

[jlpicard]

Originally Posted by awty

Credit cards for one. How about using cash from a home equity loan?
MANY others...
Jeff

You know as well as I do that these are impractical sources of capital for trading. Credit cards? You're kidding right? I have excellent credit (760 last time I checked) and could probably get 50K max. Not exactly a huge sum in the trading business as I'm sure you are aware.

And a home equity loan... Well, this assumes that 1) you own a home and the 2) that there is equity and 3) you are willing to secure that loan with that asset. I learned the hard way not to do that again regardless of how confident I am in a venture (non-trading or otherwise).

Originally Posted by awty

"MANY others..."

Really? Like what? Let's discuss these...

Truth is, it's more practical to fund a trading operation by offering a portion of the returns. This may cost the operation more for the money, but it lowers their risk. By lowering their risk, they increase the member's risk. That risk is compensated for in higher returns. If the compensation is not attractive relative to the risk, then don't play.

But calling something a scam just because they use OPM instead of a credit card or a home equity loan doesn't mean anything by itself.

As for proof of trading, this is certainly a desirable piece of DD info, but not one that anyone is likely to get even if the operation is legit. Heck, my very good friend in Boulder would let me watch him trade, but never let me see his books and quite frankly, I wouldn't either if I were in his shoes.

If this is a requirement, one could always open a managed trading account, but doing this usually required a very large chunk of capital to start (10-50K min. in my experience) and even then, you'll probably need to look long and hard to find one that is good enough to make themselves and you a acceptable level of profit.

The trade off in this space is simple: lower capital entry requirement, less disclosure, higher risk, BUT relatively high gain.

And BTW, you still haven't answered a question that is very important to me. I respect your right to come here and bad mouth this program and I am willing to address your questions and issues. I would hope that you would address one of mine which I will repeat now for the 3rd time. It is highlighted in red below:

Originally Posted by picard

And what about Legisi?... Still think they are scam or ponzi?

[hpagan]

Just an FYI.....

It appears that the EBL forum is unavailable as of this AM.

[mishugenah]

Originally Posted by hpagan

Just an FYI.....

It appears that the EBL forum is unavailable as of this AM.

But the site is fine, it must be maintenance

[awty]

"Jeff, how long would Legisi or EBL need to keep paying it's members before you might consider either might be legitimate?"
Your assumption, 'never', IS correct as being MY answer...

Ponzi schemes have run more than 20 years before they were 'shut down'...

As to whether they're trading, can you come up with 'reasonable logic', either way? (In this arena, 'proof' usually arrives LONG after it would have made a difference).

Occam's razor comes in handy at times.
What's the simplest way that these kinds of 'returns' could be 'shown' and 'paid out'. The simplest answer is usually a simple ponzi scheme.

And, yes, while it SOUNDS good, that they might be trading, and not disclosing the actual activities, I submit that they're not.

(By the way, if they were, let me mention the 'SEC registration' point again.)

Usually, these types of things like to play the 'offshore, so that doesn't affect us' deal, which is incorrect, as well...)

Do YOU think that the people that you've seen 'involved' with ebl are capable of trading, successfully? All while running a website, answering the myriad questions, etc?

Yes, using OPM to generate returns can make sense, and CAN be done. However, if not done properly, it brings additional risk, more than just financial, and not just to the people running the 'program'...

And, by the way, on the 'credit card for trading'? No, I wasn't kidding. I've done that myself. I've made MANY mistakes over time.

Just my opininon,
Jeff

[awty]

Originally Posted by jlpicard

The trade off in this space is simple: lower capital entry requirement, less disclosure, higher risk, BUT relatively high gain.

A few years ago, I would have agreed with that statement. But, after some experience with a few hundred of these types of 'programs', at various 'levels', I no longer do...
If they're keeping things 'secret', there's a reason why.

Here's a question I usually find interesting...
Why, if they're capable of generating those kind of returns, are they dealing with small deposits, and the logistical nightmares that can, and do happen?
Why not just 'trade' on their own, since they've most likely got the capital they need, with those kind of rates of return, to keep going on their own?
Why deal with (excuse the expression, but I've been on the 'other end', answering member questions, etc (long story)) whiny members and ridiculous questions, when you don't HAVE to.

There is, of course, a reason for that. LOOK for that reason?

Another way to look at that. If you've got, say, $250k, and are making say, 5%/month, consistently, why not return people's capital that got you started, and avoid having to deal with $50.00 'investors', and the headaches that can bring? For that matter, why deal with running a website/forum, and the support nightmares that can cause, as well?

Again, the answer is simple -
They NEED those $50.00 'investors'. CANNOT do without them. Take a hard look at that one, it's a fairly 'telling' question...
Why?
Simple, of course. Charles P. had the 'answer'... but - it will likely, as usual, take people WAY too long to figure that one out.

By the way, Mr. Ponzi always hoped that he could turn his 'financial design' into something real. Didn't happen. Surprise?

Just my opinion,
Jeff

[jlpicard]

Originally Posted by awty

"Jeff, how long would Legisi or EBL need to keep paying it's members before you might consider either might be legitimate?"
Your assumption, 'never', IS correct as being MY answer...

Ponzi schemes have run more than 20 years before they were 'shut down'...

I appreciate you just coming out and admitting this. You certainly are not alone in this belief. While I can not argue that a ponzi can operate for a long time, an operation that was a ponzi would not allow outflow to outpace inflow for very long.

We could go round and round on this, but the real truth is that no one can prove a program is or is not a ponzi unless they had access to the real books of the company (assuming they even kept any).

Originally Posted by awty

As to whether they're trading, can you come up with 'reasonable logic', either way? (In this arena, 'proof' usually arrives LONG after it would have made a difference).

Direct observation is best (no need for logic). After that, I rely on people I trust. If those I trust tell me something is true, I often (but not always) don't feel the need to verify it. (This is how I came to trust Legisi and what got me initially interested in EBL.)

Originally Posted by awty

Occam's razor comes in handy at times.
What's the simplest way that these kinds of 'returns' could be 'shown' and 'paid out'. The simplest answer is usually a simple ponzi scheme.

And, yes, while it SOUNDS good, that they might be trading, and not disclosing the actual activities, I submit that they're not. (By the way, if they were, let me mention the 'SEC registration' point again.)

Usually, these types of things like to play the 'offshore, so that doesn't affect us' deal, which is incorrect, as well...)

BTW, EBL is not offshore and SEC registration has been addressed in earlier posts. I agree that Occam's razor is a useful rule of thumb, but having gone through an MS in engineering (and currently finishing a BS in Computer Science), I learned long ago that the simplest explanation is often not the most accurate or representative. Occam's razor often breaks down when applied to politics IMHO.

Originally Posted by awty

Do YOU think that the people that you've seen 'involved' with ebl are capable of trading, successfully? All while running a website, answering the myriad questions, etc?

Why not? If you have a good team of people, why should this be an issue? Legisi has a staff (I've talked to several of them) and so does EBL (which I look forward to talking with very soon, but have only communicated with via e-mail so far).

Originally Posted by awty

Yes, using OPM to generate returns can make sense, and CAN be done. However, if not done properly, it brings additional risk, more than just financial, and not just to the people running the 'program'...

And, by the way, on the 'credit card for trading'? No, I wasn't kidding. I've done that myself. I've made MANY mistakes over time.

Just my opininon,
Jeff

I got a home equity loan so that I could loan a former business partner whom I did business with for 2.5 years a rather large sum (for me anyway). Did a lot of DD on the guy and his business. Saw the business and the books and I still had to take him to court because stopped paying me in September and just got a substantial judgment against him last week. Collecting on this judgment will be another matter entirely, but my point is that I've made plenty of 'mistakes' as well and have plenty of 'college of hard knocks' lessons under my belt.
.

[awty]

Originally Posted by jlpicard

Direct observation is best (no need for logic). After that, I rely on people I trust. If those I trust tell me something is true, I often (but not always) don't feel the need to verify it. (This is how I came to trust Legisi and what got me initially interested in EBL.)

Yes, we could go round and round almost forever...
However, you've just hit the nail on the head with thise point. 'Trust'...
Well placed, can be a good thing. However, especially in this arena, usually NOT a good idea (why do I say that? Let's just call it experience. 4 years of learning almost everything I could about this arena, from many different angles.)
'Trust' CAN be used as a weapon 'against' others, and there ARE sociopaths (people with no conscience) here, who only care about THEIR financial gain, and some are actually happy if they can take from others. Sad, but true.
Some of those, like to use the 'religious angle', perceiving anyone being 'taken' by them as being 'weak', and therefore 'willing prey'. Usually best to keep ones eyes, and mind, open.
You've got a much better understanding of things than most here, good to see...
Oh, and - sorry for the 'business' losses, good luck collecting, that can be a problem, I know...
Just my opinion,
Jeff

[jlpicard]

Originally Posted by awty

A few years ago, I would have agreed with that statement. But, after some experience with a few hundred of these types of 'programs', at various 'levels', I no longer do...
If they're keeping things 'secret', there's a reason why.

...and it may not be for the reason you assume... This is what NDA's are for.

Originally Posted by awty

Here's a question I usually find interesting...
Why, if they're capable of generating those kind of returns, are they dealing with small deposits, and the logistical nightmares that can, and do happen?
Why not just 'trade' on their own, since they've most likely got the capital they need, with those kind of rates of return, to keep going on their own?

Many do, others are o.k. with trading OPM and like having the leverage.

Originally Posted by awty

Why deal with (excuse the expression, but I've been on the 'other end', answering member questions, etc (long story)) whiny members and ridiculous questions, when you don't HAVE to.

There is, of course, a reason for that. LOOK for that reason?

My experience with Legisi has been that Greg would just give a whiny member back their money and close their account. Not very ponzi-like behavior in my book. If I were running a program, this is how I'd run it as well. If you are professional about an issue you have, fine. If not, you're out.

Originally Posted by awty

Another way to look at that. If you've got, say, $250k, and are making say, 5%/month, consistently, why not return people's capital that got you started, and avoid having to deal with $50.00 'investors', and the headaches that can bring? For that matter, why deal with running a website/forum, and the support nightmares that can cause, as well?

Legisi makes more than this per month and increased their min. loan to $1000. Actually, I'm going to talk to CJ about this as I don't think this is good idea either, but it's his program and I would rather hear his answer than just buy into your assumption.

Originally Posted by awty

Again, the answer is simple -
They NEED those $50.00 'investors'. CANNOT do without them. Take a hard look at that one, it's a fairly 'telling' question...
Why?
Simple, of course. Charles P. had the 'answer'... but - it will likely, as usual, take people WAY too long to figure that one out.

By the way, Mr. Ponzi always hoped that he could turn his 'financial design' into something real. Didn't happen. Surprise?

Just my opinion,
Jeff

I agree that this is true for most, but not all programs. I have my data and experience to confirm this and you have yours.
.